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	<title>Comments on: Epiphenomenalism</title>
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	<link>http://www.cloudsoup.com/weblog/2008/05/14/epiphenomenalis/</link>
	<description>no soup, no clouds</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.cloudsoup.com/weblog/2008/05/14/epiphenomenalis/#comment-264</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 10:59:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cloudsoup.com/?p=705#comment-264</guid>
		<description>Achieving consistency, contra your claim, is perfectly easy. I do it effortlessly all day long.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Achieving consistency, contra your claim, is perfectly easy. I do it effortlessly all day long.</p>
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		<title>By: Norman Bacrac</title>
		<link>http://www.cloudsoup.com/weblog/2008/05/14/epiphenomenalis/#comment-263</link>
		<dc:creator>Norman Bacrac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 10:25:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cloudsoup.com/?p=705#comment-263</guid>
		<description>Achieving consistency is hard work. If isolated in a dark, sound-proof room for a week, some derangement may result. We need to interact with the world to remain sane. As sleep deprivation causes mental problems, the brain needs 6 hours in every 24 to reorganise itself. Most of humanity has had quite false ideas about the world and its denizens, filling it with spirits, demons, gods etc</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Achieving consistency is hard work. If isolated in a dark, sound-proof room for a week, some derangement may result. We need to interact with the world to remain sane. As sleep deprivation causes mental problems, the brain needs 6 hours in every 24 to reorganise itself. Most of humanity has had quite false ideas about the world and its denizens, filling it with spirits, demons, gods etc</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.cloudsoup.com/weblog/2008/05/14/epiphenomenalis/#comment-262</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 07:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cloudsoup.com/?p=705#comment-262</guid>
		<description>Of course the first appearance would have been fortuitous; that's how evolution works.

Again, why should it be, if consciousness is epiphenomenal with no causal powers, that our conscious experience of the world should be so consistent?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course the first appearance would have been fortuitous; that&#8217;s how evolution works.</p>
<p>Again, why should it be, if consciousness is epiphenomenal with no causal powers, that our conscious experience of the world should be so consistent?</p>
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		<title>By: Norman Bacrac</title>
		<link>http://www.cloudsoup.com/weblog/2008/05/14/epiphenomenalis/#comment-261</link>
		<dc:creator>Norman Bacrac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 22:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cloudsoup.com/?p=705#comment-261</guid>
		<description>Nature and evolution cannot plan ahead, so the first appearance of consciousness, whenever that was, must have been a fortuitous event - repeated whenever a baby first becomes conscious. Nature doesn't care about its "most remarkable" product, which doesn't mean that we shouldn't. 

Neanderthals, with similar brains to ours, became extinct, and we nearly did. Dolphins may experience qualia unknown to us and have surplus IQ which they cannot exploit, being effectively limbless. Consciousness may be a feature of brains which just appears when a certain complexity is reached. Lucky for some, unless you're trapped in a collapsed building or a cyclone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nature and evolution cannot plan ahead, so the first appearance of consciousness, whenever that was, must have been a fortuitous event - repeated whenever a baby first becomes conscious. Nature doesn&#8217;t care about its &#8220;most remarkable&#8221; product, which doesn&#8217;t mean that we shouldn&#8217;t. </p>
<p>Neanderthals, with similar brains to ours, became extinct, and we nearly did. Dolphins may experience qualia unknown to us and have surplus IQ which they cannot exploit, being effectively limbless. Consciousness may be a feature of brains which just appears when a certain complexity is reached. Lucky for some, unless you&#8217;re trapped in a collapsed building or a cyclone.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.cloudsoup.com/weblog/2008/05/14/epiphenomenalis/#comment-260</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 19:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cloudsoup.com/?p=705#comment-260</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Evolution does not seem to need consciousness&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I suppose you mean to say that consciousness is not a necessary consequence of evolution? 

Agreed, no more than an elephant's trunk is a necessary consequence. Given, though, the undeniable presence of elephant trunks I would expect a responsible zoologist to be able to venture a plausible evolutionary explanation for its existence and &lt;em&gt;additionally&lt;/em&gt; I think we can safely say that such a feature was an adaptation that conferred an advantage and was selected for by the usual evolutionary processes.

You seem too close now to presuming that consciousness, the most remarkable thing, is non-adaptive?

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Evolution does not seem to need consciousness</p></blockquote>
<p>I suppose you mean to say that consciousness is not a necessary consequence of evolution? </p>
<p>Agreed, no more than an elephant&#8217;s trunk is a necessary consequence. Given, though, the undeniable presence of elephant trunks I would expect a responsible zoologist to be able to venture a plausible evolutionary explanation for its existence and <em>additionally</em> I think we can safely say that such a feature was an adaptation that conferred an advantage and was selected for by the usual evolutionary processes.</p>
<p>You seem too close now to presuming that consciousness, the most remarkable thing, is non-adaptive?</p>
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		<title>By: Norman Bacrac</title>
		<link>http://www.cloudsoup.com/weblog/2008/05/14/epiphenomenalis/#comment-259</link>
		<dc:creator>Norman Bacrac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 18:44:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cloudsoup.com/?p=705#comment-259</guid>
		<description>Put your finger 1 cm in front of an ant and it will stop and change direction - a perfect eg of 'adaptation' to its environment, avoiding danger. Even a one-celled amoeba will reverse if it encounters a drop of acid. Evolution does not seem to need consciousness (unless you think all animals are conscious).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Put your finger 1 cm in front of an ant and it will stop and change direction - a perfect eg of &#8216;adaptation&#8217; to its environment, avoiding danger. Even a one-celled amoeba will reverse if it encounters a drop of acid. Evolution does not seem to need consciousness (unless you think all animals are conscious).</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.cloudsoup.com/weblog/2008/05/14/epiphenomenalis/#comment-258</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 12:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cloudsoup.com/?p=705#comment-258</guid>
		<description>Norman, your Axiom may 'imply' such a thing &lt;strong&gt;to you&lt;/strong&gt; but as stated certainly doesn't say anything of the  sort, does it? And it's exactly that thing that's at question: why should there be a necessarily consistent mapping from brain states to conscious states, or qualia?

Of course there doesn't have to be. We're all familiar with psychotic states, drug-induced states, etc. So I'd bring you back to Helen's insight: the regularity and consistency of the conscious experience of the physical word requires  an explanation, and if consciousness is epiphenomenal the only possible explanation - that the effective conscious representation is an adaptation - is unavailable because it cannot have been selected for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Norman, your Axiom may &#8216;imply&#8217; such a thing <strong>to you</strong> but as stated certainly doesn&#8217;t say anything of the  sort, does it? And it&#8217;s exactly that thing that&#8217;s at question: why should there be a necessarily consistent mapping from brain states to conscious states, or qualia?</p>
<p>Of course there doesn&#8217;t have to be. We&#8217;re all familiar with psychotic states, drug-induced states, etc. So I&#8217;d bring you back to Helen&#8217;s insight: the regularity and consistency of the conscious experience of the physical word requires  an explanation, and if consciousness is epiphenomenal the only possible explanation - that the effective conscious representation is an adaptation - is unavailable because it cannot have been selected for.</p>
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		<title>By: Norman Bacrac</title>
		<link>http://www.cloudsoup.com/weblog/2008/05/14/epiphenomenalis/#comment-257</link>
		<dc:creator>Norman Bacrac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 11:13:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cloudsoup.com/?p=705#comment-257</guid>
		<description>The first Axiom is intended to imply precisely that - that each 'conscious' state (I don't use the ambiguous term 'mental' because most mental states are unconscious)is determined in detail by the brain state. At this point, philosophers start tying themselves up in knots, talking of 'bridging laws', 'supervenience' etc. They then lose sight of the simplicity of Axiom 1, which I believe is being confirmed experimentally every day by neuroscience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The first Axiom is intended to imply precisely that - that each &#8216;conscious&#8217; state (I don&#8217;t use the ambiguous term &#8216;mental&#8217; because most mental states are unconscious)is determined in detail by the brain state. At this point, philosophers start tying themselves up in knots, talking of &#8216;bridging laws&#8217;, &#8217;supervenience&#8217; etc. They then lose sight of the simplicity of Axiom 1, which I believe is being confirmed experimentally every day by neuroscience.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.cloudsoup.com/weblog/2008/05/14/epiphenomenalis/#comment-256</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 08:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cloudsoup.com/?p=705#comment-256</guid>
		<description>Norman, all your first axiom claims (and note it's an axiom, not an argument) is that every mental state is produced by a brain state. Your axiom most certainly does not suggest that each brain state must always and forever produce the &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;same &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;mental state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Norman, all your first axiom claims (and note it&#8217;s an axiom, not an argument) is that every mental state is produced by a brain state. Your axiom most certainly does not suggest that each brain state must always and forever produce the <strong><em>same </em></strong>mental state.</p>
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		<title>By: Norman Bacrac</title>
		<link>http://www.cloudsoup.com/weblog/2008/05/14/epiphenomenalis/#comment-255</link>
		<dc:creator>Norman Bacrac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 08:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cloudsoup.com/?p=705#comment-255</guid>
		<description>By Axiom 1, the colour experienced is determined by its neural correlate so it cannot change arbitrarily. When a traffic light changes from green to amber (ie, when it begins emitting colourless photons of a lower energy than before), one's retina transmits a different signal to one's visual cortex. This then gives rise to the new colour experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By Axiom 1, the colour experienced is determined by its neural correlate so it cannot change arbitrarily. When a traffic light changes from green to amber (ie, when it begins emitting colourless photons of a lower energy than before), one&#8217;s retina transmits a different signal to one&#8217;s visual cortex. This then gives rise to the new colour experience.</p>
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